| superrick |
| | 12/31/11 at 03:22 PM | | #1 |
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Dice Control or Not!
Richard is a writer, Director, Professional Gambler that does a radio show in Vegas! You need to read this post if you think they stay on axis!
http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2011/12/dice-control-not.html
So how many of you guys think that your dice stay on axis when you are shooting, if you are a so-called Dice Influencer DI?
I have said for years that there is no way the dice stay on axis, I have even made videos of the dice when they hit the table, the only problem was I didn't think that they were slow enough and you would have the DI camp saying that the videos didn't prove a thing because the videos didn't have the quality that I wanted to show everybody.
So now you have Stanford Wong entering into the picture, where in an interview he made the statement he said that being a so-called DI is not feasible, because after seeing a slow motion video it showed the dice were not staying on axis!
Quote:
In fact, in February, 2009, Wong stated in a post on the bj21.com craps page, in referring to the results of slow-motion video studies of skillful throws, "The truth is, there is much bouncing around, even in dice tosses that look great at real-time speed. Watching slow-motion video of dice tosses can be discouraging, and can be harmful to sales of dice books and to sales of dice-tossing instruction." No one viewing such videos would ever disagree with that.
This is the same thing that I've said all along, and I think of my self as DI, now why would I ever make a statement like this? How could I say the dice do not stay on axis, because I have shot my own videos to prove that the dice do not stay on axis!! The casinos have nothing to worry about, and that they should welcome anybody that is setting the dice at their tables, instead of trying to run them off when someone is just getting lucky! I also know how to track a table and see what the dice are doing, when I'm shooting, I don't care about the dice being on axis, I only care about the outcome! Yes I'm stilling playing craps all the time!
These dice setters bring other players to the tables that lose their money. I've heard all the arguments before that the so-called DI's are just like a golfer or a pitcher or what ever else you can compare a DI to. I have to agree with what Stanford Wong is now saying. I wonder what that is going to do to his book sales, and the great fiction writers about advantage play when it comes to shooting craps!
We all know that yes there is such a thing as advantage-play when you are playing BJ, but you can't tell me when the next seven is coming when someone is on a roll, and is trying to avoid the seven-outs! I still run into Stanford Wong on the craps tables, and yes he is still playing craps, and winning when he does play at times, just like everybody else does, no he doesn't have a SRR of 28 like one of the fiction writers does. What he does have is good betting strategies, and when he does win, he knows when to walk out of the casinos!
Unlike some, so called DI's, Stanford Wong has realized the truth about what he was trying to do in the casinos, when he was shooting. Maybe he changed the way he is now betting the game, I don't know!
He is still playing, so he must be doing something right! Am I saying that I don't think that there are a few, and I do mean a very few, DI's out there that can and do get on some good rolls when they are playing craps? Or is it that the so-called DI's spend a lot more time at the tables, losing when they are playing, and when the good rolls do come their way, the suits only see that one big win they just had and they never counted all the losing sessions they had?
I think that I've only seen one shot that any school teaches that is an off axis shot that stands a snowball's chance in hell of working in the casinos, the Little Joe, if not for any other reason its off axis from start to finish! I wouldn't even call it a controlled shot, maybe that is why I say it works, better than just slinging the dice down the table. Even with that shot you need smart betting to win playing craps!
I have said that unlike what our fiction writers are writing you can still win money at playing craps betting on anybody if you pick who you are going to bet on and you have good betting skills.
John Patrick can give you the betting skills you need just by reading what he has written. There are some other good book on the game of craps that I think used what John has written and wrote just about the same thing.
When someone is willing to spend good money on any school, one of the things they better ask them self is, does this school teach more than one type of shot, and are they teaching betting strategies that makes sense! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that if someone takes one of these classes they are throwing their money away. Most craps players don't have a clue even after playing for years, most of them have never even picked up a book on the subject, and if they did they could have gotten one that was written by one of our fiction writers!
Is it time that some of the so-called DI's wake up and smell the roses like the guys that have tried to prove that you can't keep the dice on axis when you are shooting, and maybe change their way of thinking about betting on the so-called random rollers, after all if the dice are not staying on axis, they must be just like the random rollers that they hate!
Can you beat the game of craps,..yes but not every time you go into a casino, and only with good betting skills. Can you learn anything by going to a class on dice shooting,..yes! Are you going to win hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, and travel the world playing craps? No,.. only if you are living in a fantasy world created by one of our great fiction writers on the game of craps.
Sure there are a few guys that have the bankroll to win big money playing craps, but really, do you have that kind of money to start out with to win big? Because if you don't have big money to start with you are not going to win that kind of money! There is no such thing as Advantage Play in craps, unlike it's counter part if you are playing in the casinos and playing BJ. You never know when that next seven is coming, it could be on the next roll of the dice or three hours later!
So here is my question to all you guys,.. do you still think that there are all those guys that can keep the dice on axis?
_________________
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
(A writers job is telling the truth, ...Andy Rooney 10-2-11) |
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| Frank Stanton |
| | 12/31/11 at 04:08 PM | | #2 |
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The great stanford wong, aka John Ferguson, now says hum bug. This is after-one, he said it can't be done, and two, got thrown out of a downtown casino for doing it. TOO many miss the point-if you get one more desired pay out of 43 rolls, you do shift the odds on pays to your favor. Now I am lousy in this field; but I do better than one out of 30. It also pays to be shooting with THG or "H".
Frank-S |
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| James Fritz |
| | 01/03/12 at 12:32 AM | | #3 |
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Super Rick.I think it would be hard to keep the dice on axis all the time.However, there can be good results when 1 die is on axis <or in its original formation number> and 1 die that is off axis.
There are other shooters that will use a dead cat bounce, and that's a tough roll to perfect, to get the required result.
Kelph is always looking for the yellow brick road, but it is fear that affects him.It affects many gamblers, and it can bother me too.Once fear erodes, and replaced with confidence more, the results do get better.
I still have growth in my craps game.I'm not betting out orange chips, so I know I need to do better.
That means using formations that work for me, betting stronger, and conquering fear.
What SRR does the great Stanford Wong have?
I have my own 2012 goals to accomplish, but with more work I can get there.I keep improving every year, and I have people personally I want to impress.
I will say Super Rick, try to get to Windsor Caesar's and Lac Leamy Gatineau for craps in 2012.
I think you will enjoy yourself, because I know when I make it to these places, I have a good time out.
Best wishes in 2012.
James Fritz |
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| heavy |
| | 01/03/12 at 03:20 AM | | #4 |
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I would have thought that quote from SW would have gone back further than that. My how time flies when you're having fun. Anyway, I saw the aforementioned video and the tosses were, indeed, ugly. Guess what? IMHO there was not a skilled shooter in the bunch.
As for SW's current position on dice control - last I read he was no longer practicing and did not think he could play with positive EV anymore. It's also worthy of note that he is not interested in practicing. He is much more interested in selling books about gambling (or advantage play) than actually playing. As for his craps play - he has told a few of us in the DI community that he'll gladly step up to the tables with us whenever we're in town at the same time. As for his solo craps play - well, a lot of the card-counter types have added craps as a "cover" game for their BJ play.
Regarding video - I have in my library - video of at least a thousand tosses - probably many more than that - shot at seminars over the course of the last five years or so. Most look fairly random. On the flip side, there are some real gems in there. I have some really awful tosses by good players and vice versa. Luck? Skill? Whatever.
What I do know is that regardless of how a toss LOOKS - it can generate good results. I used to be (as you can tell by the name of my program) a 100% believer in the on-axis approach to dice influencing. But like a lot of folks, my opinions about a lot of things have changed through the years. Pitch control is, in fact, even more important than axis control. I was a long time coming to that realization, but it is what it is.
Maybe I should re-develop my seminar material and call it Pitch Power Craps. Although Pitch Power Poker sounds more alliterative. |
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| Igloo no 7 |
| | 01/03/12 at 11:34 PM | | #5 |
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I agree 100% 
My dice do not stay on axis
I set all 7's on the front and top of the dice
and do a controlled throw
and roll a number.
Having longer rolls than I've ever had.
I hit the back wall every time and want them to have
lots of action.
Iggy
just wondering how many times has anyone set a number on top
and actually threw it,(Scoobie doo)says he can do it,but that's
just for book sales.... |
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| Frank Stanton |
| | 01/04/12 at 12:37 AM | | #6 |
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| #-7, for me not too often. However on one session I recognized that I was hitting the bottom faces. Put what I wanted on the bottom, and coughed up several pays. Consequently when shooting for a point the point goes top or bottom and the secondaries go for and aft. Frank-S |
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| superrick |
| | 01/05/12 at 03:10 PM | | #7 |
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Heavy and Igloo no 7
To start with I still run into Stanford Wong on the table around town, and for a guy that does not practice anymore he still has a good shot!
But the question was,.. does your dice stay on axis, our great fiction writers about becoming a DI are pushing that the dice do stay on axis when they are using an on axis shot. The trouble with that is the only answer you should come up with is no , they might end-up on axis when they come to a stop but that's about it!
Can someone who practices all the time have fewer sevens,..I think so, but I will never tell anyone that my dice stayed on axis when I was making a shot!
The next question should be just how many guys out there can really do anything with the dice,.. to hear our fiction writers you would think everybody that took a class could walk into a casino, and walk out with thousands of dollars every time they walked in with their SRR of 28. Sorry guys I just get a big chuckle ,..every time I write about a SRR of 28. The reality is no one has a SRR of 28, and just like that nobody can keep the dice on axis when they are shooting,.. the writers came up with a good theory that would sell becoming a so-called DI.
Just think if you could do that you would never seven-out, if every shot you made stayed on axis, and had the same rotation. Sounds to good to be true doesn't it? Then again aren't we all gullible people wanting to believe in miracles. The trouble is everybody wants that magic bullet, and they are an easy sell to anybody that is pushing fiction!
I'm I going to be the guy that says taking a class from one of the schools is a waste of your money,..NO.
I think some of them do a good job, of teaching the game, and they can save a player tons of money at the tables! There are guys that will get on good rolls when they are at the tables, that are so-called DI's, but I know plenty of what they call random rollers that will do the same thing just about every time they have the dice in their hands.
The casinos see the so-called DI's as a threat, only because of all the books out there, that say if you set the dice you are going to be winning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. The pin heads that run the casinos any more, read this crap, and guess what,.. they are just big suckers like everybody else! They believe it, and do everything in their powers to stop anybody that sets the dice and is just getting lucky, from having a good roll.
The funny thing is the guys that are just slinging the dice down the table is their real threat, they are the ones that they do nothing about when they are on a roll,..well I have to take that back I have seen many things that they even try to do to stop their roll too! Although it's no as bad as what they are doing to anybody setting the dice!
The so-called DI's have been a money generating machine for the casinos, and they should welcome them with open arms instead of trying to run the off. Sure you will see some good rolls coming from a guy setting the dice, and that might stick in the minds of every suit in every casino, because they are superstitious just like everybody else, they never see when they guy just dropped two thousand a day for the last two weeks. They only remember the one good win the guy had when he got on a roll just like anybody else can if they get lucky.
Winning at craps is all about smart betting, and just getting lucky at the right time, when someone gets on a roll you are there. Can the so-called random rollers make you money? Yes, they can and if you watch the tables you will always see more of them getting on good rolls then the so-called DI's!
Think about that last statement and let it sink in for a few moments,..........................The so-called random rollers out number the so-called DI's thousand of times over if not millions of times over.
They are bound to have better rolls than the so-called DI's because they out number the so-called DI's!
The trouble with our great fiction writers about craps is they want followers, just like in a cult, so they try to separate the so-called random rollers from their followers. They do a great injustice to the players that are following them!
While its fun to think that after reading a book that was written by one of these fiction writers, you could win all kinds of money, the truth is most likely you will lose what you walked into the casino with. Because they never gave you the one thing you needed, and that is good betting skills.
Now I don't think that I have ever seen Heavy shooting, although I may have but just didn't pay too much attention to his shooting, I have seen most of the DI's that have been written up in all the books, some of them are good friends with me, the trouble with that is I could count them on my fingers and toes! There are not that many of them that will ever put in all the time into becoming a DI, and yes they do lose just anybody else, they can't have major rolls back to back to back, unlike our fiction writers.
If you have some of the books just look at how many names you see in those books over and over again, in the different books, that should tell you something! Then think how many times you ever ran into one of these guys in a real casino, some of you might have taking a class from Heavy and you got to play on the same tables with him, he had some great roll while you were on the tables with him right? So we can cross him of the list of great shooter, now how many more on that list do you have to go through, count up all the DI's that you have read about and start crossing them off your list every time you see one of them in a casino.
You will never cross all of them off your list even if you had photos of every one of them, because they are not in the casinos everyday winning hundreds of thousands of dollars, unlike some of our great fiction writers, that nobody has even seen in any real casino. I know that Heavy , Howard Rock n Roller, Shapshooter, Frank Scoblete, Dominator, Stickman, Charlie009, just to name a few guys that I have seen in the casinos shooting, are all real players, and guess what they all have day jobs, or are retired!
Then you have the fiction writers that nobody have ever seen in a a real casinos, now why is that, maybe because they can't live up to the fiction they write, like the SRR of 28, give us all a break, take your writing talent and put it to some good use. Start writing about the best way to stop the players bleeding away all of their money at the table, by using smart betting, and good money management to win at the tables. It may not be as entertaining as fiction, but at at lease players won't be taking bad advice and betting $204 across to only win $49 on one hit!
All of the above mentioned shooter can shoot, I have seen it with my own eyes, but I have also seen their bad days too!!!!!
I also see Stanford Wong winning at the tables, when he is playing, because he does have the skills with his betting, and get this,.. the one thing he does have, that most players will never develop, is he know when to walk away from the tables!!!
Quote: Heavy
What I do know is that regardless of how a toss LOOKS - it can generate good results. I used to be (as you can tell by the name of my program) a 100% believer in the on-axis approach to dice influencing. But like a lot of folks, my opinions about a lot of things have changed through the years. Pitch control is, in fact, even important than axis control. I was a long time coming to that realization, but it is what it is.
So now maybe we will be seeing a name change on Heavy's board, I don't think so, but funny to think about it, after all his thinking has changed over the years!
_________________
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
(A writers job is telling the truth, ...Andy Rooney 10-2-11) |
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| trackman |
| | 01/05/12 at 04:13 PM | | #8 |
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| funny, I see the great fiction writer play regularly and he does not have a day job. If a writers job is telling the truth, you don't make the cut as you assume all the time. |
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| superrick |
| | 01/16/12 at 05:20 PM | | #9 |
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So you say your dice stay on axis!
Well I think you better look at this video that I found! I know what all you so-called DI's are going to say, but that is not how I shoot! It doesn't matter, your dice are doing the same thing that this video shows when they hit the table, but it happens so fast it may look like your dice stayed on axis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=albVSze7-KU
Then you have to look at why you would think this way! All the books on Dice Control say your dice are staying on axis if you make your shot right, you might have paid good money to take a class on becoming a so-called DI. That enough incentive to believe in what you just paid for.
While it's true that your dice did end back up on axis,.,.sorry to tell you this they did not stay on axis.
Will you have better rolls than most of the other players on the table after taking a class, I would say yes!! Unfortunately most likely you are just getting lucky just like the so-called random rollers are when they have the dice in their hands.
What you have to realize is that you will spend more time on the tables then the other players. So your bound to have some good rolls. I still say it's worth the money to take a class. I will never say that it doesn't help you out. All the so-called DI's can say look at some of my rolls, and all I can say is look at the 154 roll that happened! Wasn't she one of those random rollers that the great fiction writers don't want you to bet on!
You have to learn to bet on anybody, not just yourself. What JP has written will help you do that!
Now of course, that's if you don't want to live in a fantasy world!
_________________
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
(A writers job is telling the truth, ...Andy Rooney 10-2-11) |
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| trackman |
| | 01/16/12 at 10:03 PM | | #10 |
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| thats an interesting video......I'd like to see that type of slow motion on some of the better shooters that I know of...I seen video once of DOSA shooting and he looked very good. |
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| superrick |
| | 01/17/12 at 01:29 AM | | #11 |
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trackman
I will be shooting a video that will, show you that the dice do not stay on axis, but come up on axis.
We are just working on getting the camera, that will prove it with out a doubt.
I really don't see why any casino should sweat the so-called DI's they should welcome them with open arms! They are just getting lucky, like anybody that picks up the dice!
The word random roller should fall by the wayside, if you look at anybody's dice roll they are all random,..with a Slow-motion camera. |
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| trackman |
| | 01/17/12 at 01:38 AM | | #12 |
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casino's sweating it is more of a vegas thing thanks to 'the dominator' etc....in the northeast, just hit the wall in most places and you will be fine.
the whole on axis thing is very interesting. |
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| House of Orange |
| | 01/17/12 at 05:18 AM | | #13 |
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On Axis is sooooo 1990's Stanford Wong in his book theorized that correlation was the key. Last I heard Heavy agrees.
According to Trackman, MP is a regular customer. So Rick, now you are 0 for 2. What sayest thou? |
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| superrick |
| | 01/17/12 at 04:25 PM | | #14 |
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House of Orange
The one thing you got to love about the internet is that everybody is now a different person when they are on the internet or any forum! That guy that the girl next door has corresponded with, you know the 16-year-old guy that she is about to met for the first time, down at the city park. Turns out to be some pervert 55-year-old guy! With the exsample I just wrote, it just shows how anybody can be anybody they want to be on any forum, and has nothing to do with you two guys! You read about this type of thing happening everyday. The average guy is now a hunk, and the average girl is now a princess, the photos they posted were of somebody else! So how do we know who you or trackman are? Has anybody every met you from the board? You could be anybody, maybe even a great fiction writer!
The last I heard was Heavy just said he might have to change his way of thinking, after this thread was posted.
Quote:
Heavy said in post # 4
What I do know is that regardless of how a toss LOOKS - it can generate good results. I used to be (as you can tell by the name of my program) a 100% believer in the on-axis approach to dice influencing. But like a lot of folks, my opinions about a lot of things have changed through the years. Pitch control is, in fact, even more important than axis control. I was a long time coming to that realization, but it is what it is.
Maybe I should re-develop my seminar material and call it Pitch Power Craps. Although Pitch Power Poker sounds more alliterative.
I guess that we will see a new marketing plan by some of the players that are selling becoming DI's.
I still say that taking one of the better course will help anybody that is going to play craps, but lets tell it like it is, your dice do not stay on axis!
House of Orange the next time I run into Stanford Wong on the table I will have to ask him why he is still playing the game, and if he thinks he is just getting lucky like all the so-called random rollers, or is it his shooting skills that is making him money.
Quote: trackman
casino's sweating it is more of a vegas thing thanks to 'the dominator' etc....in the northeast, just hit the wall in most places and you will be fine.
the whole on axis thing is very interesting.
There are a lot more than just the 'the dominator' etc to blame for all the heat that players now get in the casinos, and the casinos sweating the money every time they see someone setting the dice, and getting lucky on a great roll!!!
I have to agree with you on Vegas sweating the money, but I saw a hint of the same thing when I played at FallsView, I think that I could have over stayed my welcome really fast, even in their high limit room, from the reaction I was getting from all the suits that were standing around the table when I was shooting. They all were talking about what I was doing when I was shooting.
I loved the casinos in Canada, maybe on my next trip we can met up.
House of Orange
Lets get to the last point that you are trying to make, I don't know that trackman is a real person, nor do I know that you are a real person, unlike you I have played with your hero's founding father of the Dice Institute CHARLES C. WESTCOTT author of Dice Setting Crapsability! I even made it into his book see page 210
Quote:
Seas3to5 better known as Super Rick is a Vegas local who is
an expert on flea control along with his shooting ability.
Just in case you don't understand what flea control is. Let me explain it. Most good rolls are stopped by stupid players, doing stupid things at the tables. Placing chips right were the shooter is landing their dice, late bets, stacking chips as high as they can get them , making stupid bets for the wrong amounts, and my list goes on and on!
Around Vegas we have what I would call fleas, that hang around the tables waiting for that hot roll to develop, and there is no problem with that, the only thing is they have been doing the same stupid things for years that will stop a roll dead. They have no table etiquette, their money is flying in when the shooter is shooing, they shove their way in on a full table pushing the shooter out-of-the-way if they can, all they care about is their self they have no consideration for anybody on the tables.
Funny how you can get some of these fleas to change their way of playing the game and at the same time bettering the game for everybody at the table, just by starting out a conversation with them and pointing out how they are effecting the rest of the players on the table, and themselves with what they have done for years!
99% of them had no idea that what they were doing could stop a great roll, and they come away from the table with a new outlook, about how and why they should do certain thing when playing craps.
Unlike the players on this board most of these players never pick-up a book on the game they are playing. I think that I have improved many of the local players around Vegas, just by pointing out some of the things that will help them win money at the tables.
The easiest one is to get them to please move their pass-line bet out-of-the-way, when a shooter is landing the dice right where their bet is. This works for both the so-called random rollers, and the so-called DI's!
I have no problem meeting out-of-town players that somebody knows when they are in town, if they are willing to play when I'm playing craps. So yes a lot of players from all over the country have played at the same tables with me. To put it point-blank I'm a real person, and I'm not hiding behind a computer key board.
This thread was started to get players to realize the dice do not stay on axis, and you need smart betting-approaches to win at the game, don't think that because the shooter is setting the dice that he is going to have a better roll then the guy that is just slinging the dice down the table.
What was written in the past doesn't hold water, about the dice staying on axis, now that we have slow-motion cameras!
_________________
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
(A writers job is telling the truth, ...Andy Rooney 10-2-11) |
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| trackman |
| | 01/17/12 at 07:55 PM | | #15 |
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well I have met with and played with charlie....maybe you test your toothpaste for explosives every morning???
I know all the guys you talk about and I know you were an elevator guy although I don't believe we ever met. |
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