| mr j |
| | 02/05/12 at 12:48 AM | | #1 |
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Some of us agree, if you are up 20% of your BR, quit for the day. I have no issue with that. My real question however, some have a rule of.......if you lose 70% of your BR (whatever the %), also quit for the day.
Question being, why not just BRING that 70% (which would be 100%) to the casino and when/if you lose it ALL, then quit? I dont see the difference. Why have the higher BR if you KNOW it will NOT be used?
Ken |
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| heavy |
| | 02/05/12 at 02:55 AM | | #2 |
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Hey Ken -
I used to use a percentage of my session bankroll as my loss limit (50%). A few years ago I switched from a percentage to a dollar amount. I use that same dollar amount regardless of whether I am playing on a $5, $10, $15, or $25 table, although I generally buy in for larger amounts on higher limit tables. But the answer to your question is fairly straight forward from my point of view. Mentally, I want to be the guy in charge at all times. That includes being in charge of when I leave the table. I want to walk away from the table feeling like a winner - even if I happened to have a draw down that session. I view a draw down as a necessary evil. I see tossing your last chip on the layout as losing. I don't want to walk away a loser - so I control my losses by setting a specific dollar amount I am willing to drop. |
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| Ken |
| | 02/06/12 at 09:42 AM | | #3 |
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Heavy is on the money. I also used to take my loss limit to the table and nothing more...when I was at 0...I left and mentaly said "whats the difference?" Some people can seperate it that way and most can not. I argued with John about it for some time years ago....but,but,but...He is actualy correct. The psycological games that are played in the human mind are un real. Even though it is really the same thing as you say dollar wise...it is not mind wise. Leaving with chips actualy FEELS BETTER IN THE MIND...The mental game is a very importent game that you must master... Most cant. Thats why John says what he says...By the way....I agree with him now.
Hope that helped |
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| JOHN PATRICK |
| | 02/06/12 at 12:50 PM | | #4 |
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I try my best to refrain from gettting involved in many of the threads where I do have somethng to say....but hold my tongue as I have already covered that situation in the books or videos or seminars and feel people do not wanna hear me rattle on again about something I already gave an opinion...
But the topic addressed in this thread is very very important .....in fact one of the most important parts of our gambling forays .....
It has to do with HOW we handle losing .....oh, handling winning is a snap...we consider ourselves geniuses when we win.....
But in handling losses and looking the other way when it comes to discipline....TJAT is a big part of our handling this terribly potential crushing of our mind set .....
I HATE to lose but it is tempered by the fact I learned HOW to handle the chances of losing which obviously is going to happen.....and years ago,.....before I learned HOW to handle it ....I would stay at a table down to the very last chip......and I paid or it by being broke ALL THE TIME .....
I learned HOW .....to control myself, after years and years of frustrating walks thru the streets of Vegas ...lamenting my stupidity.....
the key was LOSS LIMITS and the word (that I use so much,,,,,(PSYHOLOGICAL APPROACH).....which also affects our everyday lives and I say this so many many many times .....
Gambling is eactly like life .....when things are going bad it affects our every waking moment and our distress over certain bad thing in our lives also affect the people around us, our families and friends .....becasue we (from having a certain run of bad things happen to us ......)
carry our down trodden personality everywhere .....as we rehash what we COULD have done to avert what eventually happened to us.....
Well, gambling is the exact same thing and it affects us the exact same way.....I learned that to do away with these terrible down feelings was to eliminate what coaused them...and it finally dawned on me, after years and years of losing that the cause was my losing so much....
so, while I could NOT totally eliminate the losing ....I could temper it with discipline....enter LOSS LIMITS .......
This thread had two great posts by Heavy and Ken....and the lates one by Ken keyed me to get involved with my 2 cents in this very powerful subject.......
Yes, Ken and I went toe to toe on this subject two years ago ......and it had to odo with exactly what people use as their LOSS LIMIT.....and that is to take an amount of money "THEY CAN AFFORD TO LOSE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to a table ....
That statement still sends chils up and down my spine ......becaue if you look at it and really grasp what the words are ...you see the stupidity of it (which of course was me looking at me and how I used to play)......
Ken and I went at it tooth and nail.....and it was a tremendous pleasure for him to write the post above which will ( I HOPE) reach the eyes and ears and mind of some of you who do that ridiculous thing of staying at a table until you go thru ......all that money you can AFFORD TO LOSE UGH!!!!!!!
Enter LOSS LIMITS .......and the PSYCHOLOGICAL safety net of knowing you are leaving that game or table with money in your pocket ....
I admit that my LOSS LIMIT is NOT for most of you....I have LOS LIMIT in the range of 25% to 20%....and TWO losses in a row .....down from three and four where I first started ....
Some games like Baccarat and Pai gow poker still have 4 ....but most have been reduced (like the RiCHOCHET ...to two consecutive losses ....
And while I do not like to lose .....the losses are small IN COMPARISON to what I brung to the table .....
If you grasp anything about discipline ....please look back over this thread and catch what the guys are saying....set LOSS LIMITS....
Reduce the amount of money you lose .....drastically reduce the amount of money you lose on a given day....the hangover you will suffer mentally (PSYCHOLOGICALLY)....is not something you will get used to ....it hurts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On another thread ((GAMBLING RESOLUTIONS) I will discuss how I lost my Super Bowl dominant pick .....and won over $2000 yesterday....
I LOST on my pick with the Patriots ...every person on my service knows i picked them ....yet every single solitary e mail I have received since the final whistle last nite .....gives Hurrahs from ALL of those people who also had the Pats ....and who also walked away with a profit .....
Years ago....when I bet on ball games and the fact I would make my bet and then "die" when they lost ......I lost last nites game in the last 54 seconds .....and I did not blink.....
It had come down to not how much I would lose (becaue there was no window of losing on my days wagers )......It had everything to do with how much I would win....
So PSYCHOLOGICALLY........while thousands of others who bet the Pats and lost in that last 54 seconds are feeling rotten today (becaue of one circus catch)......
I, on the other hand and all those who know the HOW to BET theory ...are merely looking into todays schedule for the next hurdle.....
Ken.....very impressed with your advising people to go with what Heavy also laid out ......making sure that a bad session is NOT a devastating one .....
You know....over the past 4 months (for some reason....or maybe it is the multitude of seminars I ahve been giving around thes parts since last summer .......the amount of daily logons has gone up and astounding 23%.........
and Feb., in just 5 days is up another 11% over January already......the figures you people see on the message board are from the set up back in 1997.............it does not include the new set of tally sheets we put here when I moved to Florida .....we would have had to break down the entire system and start over .....
so for you people who are coming on new every week.....this is a strong thread with a great message ......leaving a table with over 50% or 60% or even 70% of your buy in.....
Try it and see how your mind set improves .............
JOHN PATRICK |
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| mr j |
| | 02/06/12 at 02:14 PM | | #5 |
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"I try my best to refrain from gettting involved in many of the threads where I do have somethng to say....but hold my tongue as I have already covered that situation in the books or videos or seminars and feel people do not wanna hear me rattle on again about something I already gave an opinion" >>> I'm a bit confused JP, maybe you can help me out.
A) If I/we did not read your books or see the videos etc., does that mean you would prefer if I did not post? Is it a RULE....its a MUST to view your materials or else no posting?
B) This question was not directed only to YOU per say, so why throw in the... "Oh my God, not this again" routine. If you dont want to 'rattle on', dont post.
C) Whatever advice is in your materials is soley your opinion. I feel, the MORE view points I/we can get, the better.
Ken |
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| JOHN PATRICK |
| | 02/06/12 at 02:48 PM | | #6 |
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Ken
What are you saying??????
I was complimenting YOU for a great post ....for making a terrific message for people to grasp about leaving a table with chips in their hands ....even though the session was a losing one.....
I was COMPLIMENTING........you
why would I tell people NOT to post ??????????
I was chastising MYSELF for posting about something I covered in my books and did not wanna bore people with repeating myself ......
But I thought this was a great thread that backed up my feelings that PSYCHOLOGICALLY, people are crushed if they leave a table with NO chips .........
Your thread brought up a great point for all of the newcomers to the board .......many of them who have never read my books ....which is no big deal .......but I thought that you should be complimented for covering a very important part of Discipline......
How could you misread what I was saying ?
What part of my previous post indicated I was ripping ANYONE?????
If you took it out of context ....my apologies ....
Maybe since I rarely congragulate anyone.......I am out of practice (grin)....I'll have to work on being a nice guy ......
Now THAT would be a chore that will take a LOT of time ......
JOHN PATRICK |
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| Kevin in Atlanta |
| | 02/06/12 at 04:48 PM | | #7 |
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Hi Ken,
re: "Question being, why not just BRING that 70% (which would be 100%) to the casino and when/if you lose it ALL, then quit? I dont see the difference. Why have the higher BR if you KNOW it will NOT be used?"
It's a good question.
Personally, I'll take $3 or $4K to LV for my trip bankroll. At a $200 buyin, that's enough bankroll for 20 games. My LL is 40% or $80/game. Even if I lost 20 straight games, which is nearly impossible, I'd leave Vegas with no less than $2400 of my $4000 bankroll. I like the psychological comfort of knowing that I cannot be wiped out. But, JP covered that better than I ever could.
Let me throw out the concept of "operating capital", which I didn't see addressed. I guess I could go with just the $1600 (40% of my $4k). If I lost 20 straight games, then I'd be loosing the same $1600, WITH ONE MAJOR EXCEPTION. How do I play down to that last dollar, especially assuming that I have a session bankroll and LL and plan to play my 20 sessions.
I get messed up quickly. Easy example, say I'm playing $44 inside. Loose $44 to a quick 7-out. Leaves me with $36 for that session, how do I play the $44 inside? I can't. What do you do? $22 inside? $34? Just the 6/8 for $36, $24 or $18, $12? Problem is, the "lack of bankroll (operating capital) has forced me to change my play. Loose a couple more, I'm left playing $6 6/8, another loss, throw my last few chips into the middle?
Obvious point is that some of the monies between your LL and buyin you are going to use to play (operating capital).
FWIW,
Kevin |
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| brennan |
| | 02/07/12 at 02:14 AM | | #8 |
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Hey Ken,
your post brings to mind shooter with his bet on DPL and
making point after point.Luckily for you,there are some
very nice people participating here.................... |
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| Nick Barth |
| | 02/08/12 at 01:11 PM | | #9 |
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Mr. J,
Used to believe in your position completely but John made me see the light. Early on when learning Pai Gow and Money Management would take $180 for 3 sessions at a $10 minimum table. My first bet
was $20. Lose 3 in a row -60 session over. One night I did lose 3 sessions in a row and lost the entire $180. (By the way am now a perfect player in both strategy and MM thanks to John). Was devastated psychologically. But if my bankroll had been the proper amount of $600 it would not have been so bad. Know it sounds absurd but it really does make a difference between the ears. |
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| mr j |
| | 02/11/12 at 11:49 PM | | #10 |
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@JP >> I thought you were slamming me, please accept my apology. I do own one of your books (A pro's guide to managing your money and beating the wheel).
Its good information, I have alot of items underlined for quick reference.
Ken |
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| JOHN PATRICK |
| | 02/12/12 at 01:37 PM | | #11 |
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Ken
absolutely no problem........
I definitely was praising you for a great post ......along with the other guys for the perception to put in words.....exactly HOW to handle this situation.....
So many people mis use the BR and treat it as a non entity ....where, in fact.......it is the kickoff point for our entire gambling forays ....
as I said ....you gave a great explanation.....
JOHN PATRICK |
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